maddie says:
Wed, 24th Feb 20107:31 am 

i agree with you. it is NOT OKAY for anyone to take advantage of another person when they are inebriated, but that being said, we all know there are sadistic people out there who would do something like that. because when you are drunk you might flirt more with someone who would otherwise give you a bad vibe, or not be able to defend yourself if they actually attacked you, i think women should be very aware of how much they drink and the settings they are in, in order to protect themselves. it is NOT the victim's fault if she is raped, because you cannot control another person's actions (and the guy should have enough sense not to go for it if he knows she is not capable of truly consenting), but we do have a responsibility to protect ourselves however we can by making informed decisions.

Casey says:
Wed, 24th Feb 20107:40 am 

I agree with Neagu to an extent. It absolutely is NOT the womans fault if she is legitimately attacked and raped, but if she is so drunk that she doesn't remember anything then she can't really claim rape, unless there was a witness then there is no way of knowing if it was rape or consensual.

With the amount of "liberated" women, especially in college, I think it's going to become harder and harder for women to report true rape cases, when women are looked at as having consensual casual sex just as much as men, then the rape issue is going to get a bit hazy.

In no way are women responsible for being raped, but how do we know if it's rape when they were blackout drunk, or if they just don't remember saying yes?

Getting that drunk is extremely dangerous, but it is certainly not ok for a guy to use, "she was drunk" as an excuse for rape. The only thing is, if the girl is blackout drunk she has absolutely no argument. So if that doesn't make you think twice about drinking so much I don't know what will.

Anonymous says:
Wed, 24th Feb 20109:09 am 

Best bet is to not get blackout drunk. It's not fair to claim rape and ruin someone's reputation if you can't actually remember what happened. If the guy was sober and there was sex, while its not necessarily rape, she was taken advantage of. While she isn't guilty of "knowing it would happen", she should have been more responsible and avoided putting herself in that situation.

Lisa says:
Wed, 24th Feb 20109:20 am 

I personally believe that too many women decide that it's rape if they wake up in the morning, and realize they didn't want to have sex but got caught up in the moment and got too drunk and decided to have sex. So, I see Neagu's point. I don't think she's referring to those girls that get attacked and legitimately raped. But waking up and regretting it, that's not rape, and people need to be reeeaally careful with what they call rape and what they accuse. I have a really good friend that was accused of rape, and the girl was just drunk and ended up regretting it. It DEVASTATED him. It's not okay for girls to do that. But I definitely don't think a girl that gets drunk is 'putting herself in that position'. A girl should be able to be vulnerable without being attacked.

J says:
Wed, 24th Feb 201010:06 am 

This definitely hits home for me. I was almost raped while tipsy (I was not drunk drunk, but I was having a good time), but luckily I had an angel of a friend looking out for me who intervened. The guy who tried to rape me was definitely dropping hints the whole night, which I picked up on and politely tried to deny. When I got a feeling like this guy would try something, I told my friend to look out for me because I didn't want to do anything with him. Best decision I made. When my friend noticed that me and the guy were gone, he found us and sent the almost-rapist (who, at that point, had gone too far but I'll spare the details) home. Yep, the almost-rapist was sober.

A few days ago, my boyfriend said he blamed me for almost getting raped. I was so upset that he could think that way about someone he loves. I'm a flirty person and alcohol definitely adds to it, but despite that fact, I don't feel I'm to blame. I did flirt with the guy in the beginning of the night, but as time progressed, I did not try to have any physical contact with the guy and I made it very clear that I wasn't interested.

Just because I had consumed alcohol doesn't mean he had the right to take advantage of me.

D says:
Wed, 24th Feb 201010:55 am 

A part of me really worries when I hear women blamed for rape. Whether its "partly" or "totally" their fault. I agree getting black out drunk is not wise (in fact its pretty stupid) but that doesn't mean you consent to anything. Is it smart to get black out drunk? No. Is it smart for a woman to go in a parking garage by herself late at night? No. But that doesn't mean she consents or is even remotely responsible for someone raping her. Hanging out in a bar, walking home alone, wearing skimpy clothes, and yes even getting drunk do not in any way make you responsible for another persons decision to rape you. To suggest it does takes blame away from a rapist and not only is that cruel to victims of rape but it is also dangerous and encouraging to rapists.

Ellie says:
Wed, 24th Feb 201010:59 am 

No means no means no means no means no.

If she said NO, it does not matter what state she was in. Yes, people should take better care of themselves and keep an eye out. Is that always possible? No.

Also, the absence of a no does not equal a yes. Being passed out does not imply consent.

Kelly - University of Iowa says:
Wed, 24th Feb 201012:49 pm 

Neagu’s article makes a really good point. I’ve known of a few girls who have done that– gotten too drunk, slept with someone, regretted it, and then called it rape. A guy friend of mine, his girlfriend of over two years called him one day and told him that exact story, that she was raped. And that her best friends we’re in the same room and let it happen.

Either she has TERRIBLE friends or she was not raped and didn’t want to tell her bf she cheated on him.

As far as the whole “She knew it would happen when she started to drink…”, I think that’s a load of bullspit. When I start drinking before going out, it’s to have a good time with my friends; NOT for a guy to touch me. Usually if I’ve had too much to drink I’ll start yelling at dudes for looking at me! If a girl was legitimately sexual assaulted, then, from this article’s point of view, it was all her fault. And it’s just not.

Eliza says:
Wed, 24th Feb 20101:02 pm 

NEVER is it EVER the victim's fault in rape or molestation. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. If a person is black-out drunk, it does not give the other person(s) a free pass to take advantage. Like Ellie said, the absence of a no does not equal a yes. There are two people involved and one is taking advantage of the other. They are not being given permission to do anything other than to treat them with the same amount of respect they would give to any other person. The person doing the crime is still committing a crime, whether the other person is sober or not.

Katie says:
Wed, 24th Feb 20102:08 pm 

Drinking even one drink legally forgoes your ability to give consent, so whether or not she gave consent and can't remember it is still LEGALLY considered rape.

Casey says:
Wed, 24th Feb 20106:01 pm 

Eliza, you're right, its never the victims fault, but when alcohol plays a part it makes it difficult to determine if it was rape or regret.

And Katie, what if they're both under the influence? Would it be the guy who raped the girl or the girl who raped the guy? That's why that "rule" doesn't always apply. And you can't always tell if someone is drunk, so if she says yes when she's drunk and then takes it back in the morning how is that at all fair to the guy? He didn't know.

Alana says:
Wed, 24th Feb 20108:13 pm 

I wish we lived in a world where girls can be passed out drunk in some dark alley without fear of being raped. The fact is, however, we do not. I think what Neagu was trying to get at is that there ARE creepers out there and being raped while you're too drunk to consent is a very real possibility. I completely agree with this notion. If a guy takes advantage of an unconscious girl, is he a rapist? Definitely. But the girl bears the responsibility of not letting herself get to that state. Go out, dance, have a FEW drinks, and bring along TRUSTED friends/designated sober person to watch out for you if you're going to go crazy.

You can be outraged a cry rape all you want. It is a terrible thing to go through but it is definitely preventable. I'm only referring to being taken advantage of when you're blackout drunk. Think about why many women do not report these things and why it's so difficult to win these rape cases in court. The jury definitely puts responsibility on you to make wise choices to keep yourself safe. Even the victims themselves know it wasn't inevitable, and they definitely made bad choices. Knowing the possible consequences but choosing to drink to the point of oblivion definitely makes you responsible for getting raped in my book.

In some places women are killed for being raped by family members because they're no longer pure. And then at the opposite end of the spectrum, for ex. here in the U.S., we have to coddle girls and tell them things like "hey, maybe you shouldn't take that stranger home" and "maybe you should walk around town late at night dressed like a hooker" and "it's probably not a good idea to get high/passed out drunk around horny guys at bars and clubs". Tragic, just tragic.

Alana says:
Wed, 24th Feb 20108:15 pm 

oops, *shouldn't* walk around town, not should, haha

Lisa says:
Thu, 25th Feb 20106:02 am 

I just have one question about the whole "absense of a no doesn't mean a yes." How is the guy supposed to know that you're not consenting if you don't express it. I am assuming though, that pushing away, etc does count as a 'no'. Especially if he's drunk as well? We all know subtle signs don't always get picked up by men. I'm not in any way saying that rape is okay. But if you don't express a no in some way, men can't read minds.

wanderlustfromlondon says:
Thu, 25th Feb 20107:48 am 

when a girl is really drunk, even a yes should be taken as a no. no decent guy is going to go for it under those circumstances as it's obvious she's not thinking straight and might not have said yes if she was sober. unfortunately there are many far from decent guys out there so the best you can do is get over that immature thing of getting too drunk to function and just get controllable drunk with people you trust. that being said, no matter whether a girl is wasted and naked in the street, it's not her fault that some horrible person takes advantage of her. girls can (and should) take steps to be safer, but they are NOT EVER 'asking for it'.

D says:
Thu, 25th Feb 20109:48 am 

“maybe you should walk around town late at night dressed like a hooker”

Haha that made me laugh. Because you know

A.) If your a hooker it's totally okay to get raped

B.) Taste isnt subjective and its not like some people would say an outfit is slutty while others would say its fine

C.) Rape isnt about sex its about power.

Alana says:
Thu, 25th Feb 201012:20 pm 

@ D:

First off, I'd like to thank you for putting words in my mouth. And in response to your comments:

1) If YOU'RE a hooker, it is not okay to get raped but you can't deny the dangers of the profession, and same goes for strippers. There is a reason why they're targeted often by serial killers. It isn't a stretch to say if you're mistaken for a hooker, then you might be caught in unsafe situations.

2) The key words in my statement is "late at night". Wear a bikini to the beach makes perfect sense. But late at night it is a good idea to at least cover up, even if you're in a big group of girls.

3) For most situations, but it isn't completely unrelated to sex. Don't tell me some guy at the club dragged you into into his car and raped you because he wanted to feel powerful. Most likely at the time he was horny and wanted to get off, like many guys at the club. Rape is also in many cases a crime of opportunity. If you don't get blackout drunk, you are actively decreasing the chances that you'll get raped.

Let me be clear again that I believe a guy who is not a rapist will not rape you even if you're passed out naked on his lap in his apartment. You're not responsible for his decision to rape you. But you are completely responsible for taking necessary precautions to keep yourself safe. Assume all guys can be rapists and keep yourself in check when you go out. Why would you gamble with your life just for a night of partying?

Emily says:
Tue, 2nd Mar 20101:03 pm 

i think people should take a good look at the sexual assault laws in their state. as for mine, a person is legally incapable of consenting to sex if they are inebriated. while some people may have an issue with this, i think it's a great law that prevents one party from taking advantage of another simply because they are drunk. just because you go out and drink doesn't mean you are asking to get sexually harassed in any way. just like dressing in a low-cut form fitting outfit doesn't mean you're asking to get raped, neither does drinking.

June says:
Tue, 2nd Mar 20101:33 pm 

A guy i thought was a friend of mine (over 2 years) most definitely took advantage of me, and ill never forgive him. During one night of drinking with our group of friends, we decided to break off and go to another party since every one was tired and we were still ready to drink more. I drank quite a bit, i was not black out drunk, but i don't have mild recollection of the things i said, how i got places, etc.

The whole night, the two of us were just being friends, not flirting, touching, whatsoever! in fact, i was talking to other guys at the party. then we went back to his frat because he said i could sleep in his bed and he would sleep on his couch. i was too drunk and it was too late to walk home, otherwise i would've been completely against the idea. all the sudden he was in the bed, kissing me and taking my clothes off. it's not at all what i wanted but i was too drunk to think how repulsed i would normally feel in this situation. he asked to have sex, i said no about 5 times- he kept pressuring me until i finally gave in, just barely…it was terrible…it's not at all what i wanted, or something i would've done. worst of all, i felt taken advantage of because i hadn't been reciprocating sexual signals prior or during or after. yet it's excusable because i finally (but not directly) said yes.

Tawana says:
Tue, 2nd Mar 20106:56 pm 

I dont agree with her article…i mean how dare SHE make assumptions like this? I think that i'm just going to let her off the hook since she's a freshman and not maybe lets say a senior who has learnt how things work in this society.

whether you tell someone to drink or not, in a lot of cases (considering we are not perfect beings) someone is going to drink in excess, and im not saying its RIGHT, but im acknolodging the fact that it happens. Now, with that said, in her article she said the girl was UNCONSIOUS right? then its not her fault. now, lets say, hypothetically that she was NOT unconsious, yet she was drunk, it would still be wrong because the person who is committing the sexual act with her is in acknoledgment that the girl is in NO state of mind to make ANY type of decision…so his best bet is to make sure that she gets home safely. NOW…since we DONT live in a perfect word and it would be ideal to have all guys take a girl home when she's drunk, i would say that it is STILL the guy's fault. by stating that it is not, is like telling me things like this: "dont drive because you know one day you might get in an accident or dont swim because you know you might drown"…ITS LIFE. ANYONE who violates another person's body without PERMISSION is in the wrong: I DO NOT CARE IF I WAS HOLDING A SIGN THAT SAID: DO ME RIGHT NOW…If You approached me and i said NO or was drunk..ITs YOUR FAULT.

criolle says:
Wed, 3rd Mar 20104:37 am 

Katie … "Drinking even one drink legally forgoes your ability to give consent"

In what state?

Matt says:
Wed, 3rd Mar 20106:11 am 

And what if both the man and woman are both equally drunk? If neither can give consent then both should be tried for rape correct?

But in reality it would just be the guy who is charged with rape

criolle says:
Thu, 4th Mar 20103:35 am 

Watch it Matt! Last time I mentioned that I got tons of hate messages!

If the man is drunk, he commits a crime. If the woman is drunk, the man commits a crime. If she drinks, he got her drunk.

SHE is never responsible. Look at Katie's message again.

Casey says:
Thu, 4th Mar 20106:36 pm 

Criolle and Matt, it really depends on the situation. If both parties are under the influence and WANT to have sex, then neither are likely to file a case for rape just because the law says you can't consent. However, if one party either honestly didn't want to partake, or just regretted it, and they file a case, then they are coming forward as the victim, as the other party likely didn't feel as though they were raped considering they didn't file a case themselves. That being said, men are less likely to come forward saying they were rapped, because a. if it was by a man they don't want people to know they were violated that way, or b. if by a woman they don't want to be viewed as "weak".

I'm curious how a case where both parties were inebriated would actually go though. And it certainly is harder for a man to win a rape case, either as the victim or otherwise.

criolle says:
Fri, 5th Mar 20103:28 am 

YOU just mentioned the problem Casey! "if one party … just regretted it".

Consent at night + regret the next morning = rape. Even if BOTH parties were drunk. If she's drunk, she's not responsible. If he's drunk, no excuses. If they're both drunk, she's not responsible … he is, but only if she has "regrets" the next morning.

She can actually have regrets weeks or even MONTHS later. When does a guy know if he had sex or committed a felony?

Where are all the nice guys?

Doug says:
Sun, 7th Mar 20102:11 pm 

Katie said:

” Drinking even one drink legally forgoes your ability to give consent, so whether or not she gave consent and can’t remember it is still LEGALLY considered rape.”

That’s absurd and it’s not the law in ANY state (or country that I’m aware of). There may be some campus honor code that has that standard somewhere (utterly ridiculously), but I doubt it. Very few radical feminists go QUITE that far. But plenty go way too far.

The majority and probably the large majority of first sexual experiences in this country with someone new who ever drinks occur when one and usually both persons have had a few drinks. It is hardly news that drinking is a social lubricant and common occurs when meeting new people in a social context.

If someone is blacked out drunk at the time of intercourse, the woman was incapable of giving consent – and it becomes rape. (Unless there was previous consent, not withdrawn.) If she later blacks out that night, or is unable to remember clearly, it’s not.

Rose says:
Sun, 7th Mar 20102:17 pm 

"With the amount of 'liberated' women, especially in college, I think it’s going to become harder and harder for women to report true rape cases, when women are looked at as having consensual casual sex just as much as men, then the rape issue is going to get a bit hazy."

It's probably worth noting that the idea that tons of "false rape" cases are coming up is false. Only about 5% of rape reports turn out to be false. And that's not even considering the fact that 95% of "actual rapes" go unreported. Yeah, um, it's actually still pretty prevalent.

I don't get why consensual casual sex by women is going to make it harder for women to report "actual rapes." I don't see why what constitutes "consent" is any more complicated of an issue if you've known the dude for two hours as if you've known him for two years. And I'm pretty sure what you're describing as "not rape" is still rape – if you regret it when you're in your right mind, you weren't really able to give consent and therefore you were raped. It's a bit like if you were a Harry Potter wizard and put someone under the Imperius Curse and then raped them – even if they technically said "yes" they weren't in any sort of a state to be able to give informed consent.

Rose says:
Sun, 7th Mar 20102:47 pm 

Also, Doug, there are some laws that stipulate that beyond a certain point of inebriation, a person is no longer able to give consent. You're right, though, that "one drink" is not the law anywhere, and such a standard would be ridiculous.

As a person with social anxiety disorder, I often drink to relieve pressure in social situations, and so I too find the implication that any drinking + sex = rape to be problematic. I often find that drinking makes me more acting in giving attention, as well as less embarrassed if I'm the one receiving attention. So I don't buy the idea that something I wouldn't do sober but would do drunk is rape, because sometimes I do want that thing but in my sober state I'm too anxious to do anything.

That being said, I don't think that "blacked out" is the standard we should apply for when someone loses the ability to give consent. There's a point where you go beyond simply loosening your repressions, to where your standards are changed, and you'd do things with people whom you'd never give a second look to while sober. It's not a case of finally getting the courage to do something you've always wanted, as doing something you normally wouldn't want to do but you're too drunk to care. Also, there's the fact that a lot of rapes where one or both parties were drunk consist of the victim not bothering to tell the perpetrator one way or the other whether they wanted it, where they're too drunk to be able to articulate what they want. Consent is not the absence of a no, it's the presence of a yes.

Rose says:
Sun, 7th Mar 20102:48 pm 

I don't know if I articulated this or not, but what I meant by the first part of the last paragraph of the above comment was that you lose the ability to give consent long before you get to the blacking-out point.

Doug says:
Mon, 8th Mar 20109:57 am 

Rose–

Consent is not the absence of a no, it’s the presence of a yes.

That's what radical feminists are trying to push and it's absurd. That's not the law anywhere either, though may be in some campus honor codes. What that in effect does is 1) push the burden of proof for a very seriously punished crime, as it should be in violent of credibly violence threatened rape. Which is not the standard for any other crime, certainly not for a felony punishable with serious jail time. It's deeply offensive to centuries old Anglosphere common law legal tradition.

Further what that in effect does is allow any girl after sexual intercourse, if she regrets it after the fact to charge rape and win, even if that's primarily or entirely because of social pressures brought to bear on her, e.g. by the boyfriend or fear of losing the boyfriend she cheated on (see the recent Hofstra, NY case), or parents, or her censorious roommate, etc. After all the burden of proof is on him. What's he gotta get, signed written consent first?

Further, in only of a minority of times I've had first sex with a girl, and probably a small minority, has she ever said "yes" or "please f*ck me". Sure the later sometimes, but that's usually down the road with her. Instead she doesn't say "no" as the seduction/foreplay gets hotter — or maybe she does, weakly and tentatively at first, but then stops no's and replaces them with moans and no resistance. That's what's typical. Especially when the attraction and sex is really good and particularly if the seduction has been relatively rapid.

Now if she says no means no, or "I mean it, no" or anything like that, or even just says no really sharply a couple of times, or once with emotional conviction, that's the end of it.

Doug says:
Mon, 8th Mar 201010:14 am 

That 95% of rapes are unreported stat is complete radical feminist bs propaganda and isn't supported by any credible studies.

Instead to the extent it's supported by anything at all, it's based on some non credible rad feminist surveys with suspect sampling that include as "rape" a "yes" answer to questions such as "has any man ever had sex with you and you later regretted he did".

A high percentage of guys have also had sex they've regretted. Certainly guys of much experience.

Doug says:
Mon, 8th Mar 201010:17 am 

Rose–

That ‘only 5% of rape claims are false‘ figure is similarly bogus.

See:

the last time the FBI reported on unfounded rape claims was 1996 (it never reported on "false" claims per se), and it found that 15% of all claims were "unfounded." See Dr. Bruce Gross, False Rape Allegations: An Assault on Justice, Annals of the American Psychotherapy Associaton, Dec. 22, 2008. This percentage, by the way, reflected only the claims that the FBI knew were unfounded; the FBI did not suggest that the other 85 percent were actual rapes. Rape claims do not lend themselves to that kind of certainty. Only fiften percent of all such claims result in conviction, so for the vast majority of claims, no one can assert with certainty how many are false.

Every impartial, objective study shows false rape claims are a significant problem. As reported by "False Rape Allegations" by Eugene Kanin, Archives of Sexual Behavior Feb 1994 v23 n1 p81(12), Professor Kanin’s landmark study of a mid-size Midwestern city over the course of nine years found that 41 percent of all rape claims were false. Kanin also studied the police records of two unnamed large state universities and found that in three years, 50 percent of the 64 rapes reported to campus police were determined to be false.”

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2010/03/anot…

The article is worth a read. The blogger is a former prosecutor who has dealt with and researched the issue of false rape claims extensive, and continues to do so.

Doug says:
Mon, 8th Mar 201010:26 am 

Rose–

That being said, I don’t think that “blacked out” is the standard we should apply for when someone loses the ability to give consent. There’s a point where you go beyond simply loosening your repressions, to where your standards are changed, and you’d do things with people whom you’d never give a second look to while sober.

Standards changing is the drinker's responsibility. If she moans enthusiastically as he caresses her after she's had 3-4 drinks and they go upstairs to his room, and continues to moan and get into it as they scr*w, is that rape? How's he supposed to know she didn't want to?

There's no doubt that alcohol lowers inhibitions aka among other things standards somewhat. That's why both sexes drink at social gatherings.

If a guy wakes up next to a fattie after getting "beer goggles" the night before in the party or bar, can he convict the fatty lying next to him of rape if he regrets it the next day — especially after his buddies find out and embarrass him? Or is that his problem for drinking too much but still being able to walk and talk?

Erick says:
Tue, 9th Mar 20101:39 pm 

I love this article! EVERY GIRL HAS A RAPE STORY! My ex said she got raped, she got drunk and had sex with a guy that she normally didn't want to. Did she file a rape charge? No! Because deep inside, she knew she didn't get raped. Here is the secret guys, don't bring back the girl to your house, if you do give her some more drinks before she leaves, and don't under any circumstance give them your number, take theirs, and lets try and not give last names either. That way if she regrets it the next day she only knows your name! LOL That way if she sees you again at the bar later and calls the police your DNA will be long gone and its your word against hers. And here is the catch, I have way more money than the majority of women so when she presses charges I get off and she looks like a dumb ass for lying. MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND! Men take advantage of a situation just as much as women. Whats the greater evil? The guy having sex with a drunk girl? Or the girl lying and saying she was raped and ruining his life/criminal record? Moral of the story, guys don't be shady, girls don't be scandalous…

Tamara says:
Tue, 9th Mar 20102:48 pm 

Hey, I know comments aren't usually erased in this blog, and usually I think that's great: but this one is practically encouraging rape and explaining how to get away with it. It should't be on the web, and if this was my blog, I would definitely not be involved in the communication of this sort of opinions.

Eleanor says:
Tue, 9th Mar 20105:12 pm 

Regret and mutal levels of drunkeness really dont have any grounds here. The fact is if a girl is blacked out, or incoherent, what man in his RIGHT MIND should want to have sex with a girl who is dribbling drunkenly on the couch?

The idea of 'blackout' rape comes from the fact that the girl is incoherent, therefore unable to make a straight descision. If she makes a drunken decision and regrets it, its not rape, period. If she physically cant form the word yes OR no, then really she should be laid out in a bed somewhere and left to sleep it off, drooling away to her heart's content.

Tip for guys, here – if she isnt responding, or if she cant form a sentence, just leave her to sleep. Why would anyone but a rapist want to have sex with a person in that state, anyway?

Casey says:
Tue, 9th Mar 20106:44 pm 

Eleanor, you make a great argument, the problem is, how often do people really say "yes" or "no" to sex? It doesn't usually happen that way, you don't actually ASK the person, it just happens, it's a heat of the moment thing, ESPECIALLY when you're drinking. So there is a lot of gray area to this situation.

And Tamara I see how you think Erick's post is bad, but I don't think he meant "guys take advantage of girls and don't give her your info so you can't get in trouble" I think he meant more, "don't give out your info in case she regrets it in the morning." Because he's exactly right, regret and rape are not the same things. You may not have slept with the guy if you were sober, but that doesn't mean you didn't know what you were doing. The term "beer goggles" is a very real phenomenon and just because you have beer goggles and sleep with a guy you normally wouldn't doesn't mean you were raped. His comment was a little off handed, he's probably bitter because that situation is way to common.

Casey says:
Tue, 9th Mar 20107:17 pm 

Oh and just to share some personal experience with this situation (sorry if it's TMI, I'm just trying to stress a point)…

My current boyfriend and I hooked up for about a month and a half before we actually started dating, and the second time we had sex I was black out drunk, and he was sober. It was a really hazy situation for him because we had already had sex before, and I came on STRONG to HIM. In fact all I remember was "waking up" riding him. So from what a lot of you are saying, that would constitute as him raping me, but I was the one who initiated it, and I was the one who was actually doing the work, and I was the one who really wanted it, he just let it happen. Of course I didn't regret it the next morning, but if I had, it still wouldn't be rape.

It was YOUR choice to get as drunk as you did. If you can't be responsible then you shouldn't drink that much, because even though you're under the influence you are still responsible for yourself and your actions, we're adults, no one else is responsible for you, but you.

Casey says:
Tue, 9th Mar 20107:47 pm 

Just to clarify, I'm not saying it's ok for a guy to take advantage of you, that is NEVER ok. I'm just saying sometimes there is a gray area.

Laura says:
Thu, 11th Mar 20106:51 am 

As much as I understand that false rape claims are in fact a problem–people regretting who they had sex with and thinking that crying rape would be easier than just saying "hey I regret sleeping with that person but still consented"–it makes me sick to think that people think that there could be some sort of in between where maybe rape isn't quite rape. Rape is always rape. No matter how drunk either party is. It doesn't matter if BOTH parties are drunk. What, can it suddenly be okay for somebody to take advantage of another person because "oh, they were drunk!" If a person in some ways turns down sex–it doesn't have to be a stated no–but makes it clear they don't want it, then it is rape. Plain and simple. No matter what their level of inebriation is.

I understand where many of these comments are coming from, and that they see people claiming rape because of something they regretted as a problem. I think that's a problem too. But the message that always seems to be broadcast instead is that the victim's take some of the blame if there were alcohol or some other substance involves that impairs judgment. How does that sound, then, to the victim who maybe did have a little too much to drink but still did clearly say no and ended up being raped? On top of all that this person goes through, now there's added guilt that shouldn't be there. It is NEVER the victim's fault that some maniac decides it's okay to take advantage of them after they say no. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. It's only the sick, twisted person who thinks it's okay to rape somebody's fault. Even if the rapist is drunk as well. Doesn't make them any less guilty either.

That's what concerns me about this. I think it's important to address the issue of somebody claiming rape after an evening they may regret, but it's extremely important also to make sure the message that's getting out is that if a person was in fact raped, they need to remember it is not their fault and not feel ashamed to report the rape to proper authorities (the police, seeing as rape is a crime) and seek out the proper help to get them through what is a life-shattering experience.

Rob says:
Thu, 11th Mar 201011:57 am 

If you got drunk and had consensual sex with someone smart enough to sweet talk you; you chose to lower your inhibitions. You know damn well when you slam down that 10th shot of tequila that you're going to make fucking stupid decisions. Yes; it's very sleazy for a guy to charm his way into a drunk girls pants. But chances are he's drunk too; his inhibitions are lowered also; and that guy that's probably horny in his head all the time, is now horny and willing to go the extra mile. I'm not saying it's right; but it certainly doesn't constitute RAPE unless someone is saying no; or someone is completely passed out or otherwise unconscious. Avoid these situations; just get regular drunk.

Sue Madre says:
Thu, 11th Mar 20102:28 pm 

This is such an awesome thread. A few questions:

1) Why are women deciding to get completely hammered around strangers? Perhaps a little social grace is in order when drinking with new people? Men, the same goes for you…

2) How do we define “rape?” If a woman is so drunk that she’s unresponsive, it does NOT mean she’s okay with sex, obviously. However, if she responds to sexual advances, then it could never be considered rape. If she does not respond, then it is rape. Simple, right?

3) As far as I understand it, the real fear women have here (and please correct me if I misunderstand) is that they will be so drunk that they will willingly have sex in a half-conscious state with a complete stranger. Is this correct? I have this image in my head: I picture a drunk girl half asleep on a couch in an empty room. A man walks in and kisses or touches her. She enjoys it and, in her half-conscious state, kisses/touches him back and has sex with the man, imagining he’s her boyfriend or a dream man or perhaps not even thinking anything except that it feels good. Is this rape? To the best of my knowledge, this is the exact definition of the gray area. However, if the man had walked into the room and touched/kissed her and she was snoring/completely unresponsive, then this is obviously rape, right?

Personal testimony: I was at a party once. The night was winding down. One of my good male friends was getting cozy with a girl on a couch. We were all drunk, but we watched as the girl led my buddy upstairs by the hand (he was more drunk than she). They didn’t have drinks in their hands, nor did they continue drinking upstairs. The next morning, the girl said she was raped. The next morning. Everybody, including the girl’s best friends (who were also at the party and witnessed everything) told the girl to shut up. My buddy was traumatized and terrified. The girl eventually admitted that she was not, in fact, raped. She was just drunk and made a mistake and was ashamed. Having only been a witness to this event, I am still scarred for life.

Solutions:
1) Have sex when you’re sober. Duh. It’s more fun when you remember it anyway.

2) Women: don’t get wasted with complete strangers, especially complete male strangers.

3) Men: don’t get wasted with complete strangers, especially complete female strangers. (Yes, it’s the same. You’ll get drunk and try to impress the new girls. You won’t be able to judge anything. The girl could be a psychopath for all you know. Or she could be your future wife. Either way, chill out.)

4) Men: if a girl is too drunk to stand/walk/speak/keep her eyes open, just leave her the hell alone. Even if you know her “from before” and think she kinda likes you.

5) Women: DON’T PASS OUT AT PARTIES. EVER. GO HOME.

Tom says:
Tue, 16th Mar 20105:01 pm 

Also agreed that is not the women's fault if she is "raped". Now if 2 people are intoxicated and no one says no or stop yet she wake up the next morning and in a sober state would not have had sex. THAT IS NOT RAPE! I have never had a girl say no to me though also on that over half never said yes. I think the rape card is played just as much if not more than the race card. Just because in a sober state you wouldn't have slept with him doesn't mean that you should ruin someone's life. Rape is a serious matter and I think girls use it as a way out. More and more cases are being over turned because the courts and everyone else automatically take the women's word. Then later they find either evidence or the accuser confesses to lying.

Ladies by all means if you were ACTUALLY raped: meaning you said NO or STOP or GET OFF then you should report it. Though if you were too drunk to make the decision you really wanted to make then i'm sorry but screaming rape is not the answer. Stop putting yourself in that situation by drinking so much. Other than that be safe!

cherikee says:
Wed, 17th Mar 20103:23 am 

There is a line. If a woman is aware enough to give consent in any way then it is her fault. She chose to drink, knowing what would happen. After all, you can't say that a drunken car wreck isn't your fault because you were blacked out and not aware of what you were doing. If she is unconscious or forced into sex, then obviously, it's the man who is wrong. Simple.

Mike Smith says:
Wed, 17th Mar 201010:34 am 

I was Drunk Drunk Drunk, and so was she.

We had Drunk Sex.

I feel so ashamed as to what she did to me.

She took advantage of me whilst I was Drunk.

I was too Drunk to talk, so was she.

Sound familar?

sean says:
Wed, 17th Mar 201011:07 pm 

OMG ! I have been in a bisexual situation and still allowed fo a sec …. I was wasted ! I am sorry unless passed out you still have a choice !

Libby says:
Thu, 18th Mar 20103:11 pm 

Personally, I think the best solution would be to just abstain from both alcohol and sex. But do as you wish…

Julie says:
Fri, 19th Mar 20107:51 am 

We all know that girl that can't go out for a drink with out getting to drunk to even think straight but I have seen it enough times that I know it isn't always the guys fault. I've known others that having a couple of drinks is just the excuse that they use to cheat on a boyfriend or act slutty to the guy they want for the night. I've also seen to many friends accused of rape when the next morning the girl decides that they don't want anyone to know that they willingly went to bed with this guy or that. I just tell all my guy friends that to be safe don't have sex if you or the other person has had anything to drink. Better to have sober sex than a prison term.

criolle johnny says:
Fri, 19th Mar 201010:43 am 

Hey Mike … "Drunk, Drunk, Drunk" … Now you're a father. Is it still YOUR fault?

Blair says:
Sun, 21st Mar 20102:38 am 

Stumbled upon this article and have to say, why hasn't anyone responded to wanderlustinlondon's point? I thought it was valid – anyone, male or female, should have the sense to understand that when someone is inebriated, blackout or not, they have lost at least some if not all ability to understand the situation and make the same decisions they would if they were sober.

I also believe that in determining a rape case it is necessary to look at how the victim feels, and not just the situation in which it occured. The biggest difference between regret and rape is the idea that someone was violated. The emotional impact of rape would be very different and much stronger than someone who was just regretting the night before.

username says:
Sun, 21st Mar 20103:33 pm 

I don't understand your point, Blair

username says:
Sun, 21st Mar 20103:35 pm 

"when a girl is really drunk, even a yes should be taken as a no. no decent guy is going to go for it under those circumstances as it’s obvious she’s not thinking straight and might not have said yes if she was sober."

alls i know is barely any sober girls say yes, so a drunkin i will go

Blair says:
Mon, 22nd Mar 201011:10 am 

username@8:33, I am sorry, I thought I was being clear, but which part of my point did you not understand?

If the first, I was saying that I agree in part with wanderlustinlondon. Even if someone should not drink to the point of blacking out, anyone would understand that you are not always in control when you have alcohol. It can make you lose some if not all of your ability to think and be aware of the situation you are in. Even if it is the victim's fault for letting themselves get into a position where they can be taken advantage of, people should know better.

If the second, what I was trying to say is that rape is traumatic, and the emotional state a victim is in after would be hugely different from someone who cries false rape because they want an excuse for the night before. I honestly believe that the difference in the state of mind between someone who truly believes they were violated and someone who consented but later regretted it would be discernible.

Truth says:
Tue, 23rd Mar 201010:32 am 

This is pretty easy. If a female gets dressed to go look for action then drinks herself stupid or unconscious while in pursuit of this thing then yeah thats her fault now that said if I guy knows this girl is like this and rapes or has sex with her without her being conscious yeah he is a rapist. the big thing is it doesnt get a do over or as you stated doesnt count. You dressed like that and you drank like that and you knew before the first drink what you were about to be partaking so the blame is clearly both parties. the female for being a lush while she was conscious flirting and getting a guy going then passing out. The guys fault for taking a pass on a drunk broad who obviously isnt worth the trouble as she is an alcoholic as normal people dont drink til they black out and as its said sometimes when you dumb stuff bad things happen…moral of the story …dont be an F*@***G idiot

Andrea says:
Mon, 29th Mar 20107:37 pm 

The bigger picture: most WOMEN sympathize with this gray area (sadly which many men are unable to see)…the question of true rape versus a sexual encounter with consent based, not on a solid yes, but on the natural response to touch, pleasure and sexuality IS NOT CONSENT! Until a man knows what it's like to be a woman, he cannot understand the female position in society and how men's power still presides over women… Just think of prostitutes, strippers, etc…men hold the power, provide these options for women because they are shelling out the $$$.

The Men who think it's justified to sleep with drunk women (aka: girls they KNOW truthfully would not have sex if they were sober)are in the gray area…is it rape? Maybe. Women obviously like sex but not considering her actions if she was sober is scumtastic and positioning women lower than men.

RunningGal says:
Fri, 2nd Apr 201010:37 pm 

Let's be equitable and for once treat male and females as equal under the law.

If both were drunk, they each had sex with a drunk, ie someone who couldn't soberly consent to the sex act. Hence, both parties should be charged by the police with rape, irrespective of what either party now thinks, or wants, after the event, because sometimes the public interest overrides the wishes of the reluctant plaintiff.

Then,let this pair of feckless halfwits, once convicted of rape in a court of law by a jury of twelve men and women true, spend many years behind bars and thereby be taken out of the breeding pool.

Equality under the law – equal treatment. And the great win is that thereby will the current generation of North American idiots of both sexes have less opportunity to destroy this planet for future generations.

Susan says:
Mon, 12th Apr 20109:37 am 

Just to show you how wrong many of you are – and yes, especially the boys who are whining about "feminists" – let's look at this slightly differently: if you boys got drunk, and someone said, "Hey, give me all your money!" & you were so wasted that you did, would you have been robbed? Or would you say, "Gee, I brought it on myself – I couldn't possibly press charges"?

Just because the law isn't enlightened enough to equate the two – and for obvious reasons – doesn't change the facts. You take advantage of a drunk girl, you're a rapist, same as if someone ripped you off while you're drunk is a thief.

Dee says:
Wed, 21st Apr 20109:49 pm 

Lets just start sticking dildos up all the guys we know asses when they get drunk and pass out, and when they wake up we can just say it was their fault for being too drunk, or better yet let's take them to an all to a anything goes power exchange where anything goes… I mean guys will take it anyway they can get it…Right?

Dee says:
Wed, 21st Apr 201010:13 pm 

I am infuriated… personal experience… if she was passed out then she wasn't asking for anything! I befriended an idiot who begged me to drink with him because he was depressed. I was across the street from my house, and he was a friend of my husbands from high school, and I will admit that I was dealing with my own issues, which I did not share with him, but I did drink a good amount from what I do remember. I trusted him and he took advantage of me. I do not remember any of it, and at the end of the night he carried me across the street to my husband. I could've have been drugged because, but I will never know. Then he and is roommates spread rumors that we had "consensual sex", yes in those words . You can say it is or isn't rape, but I know I have been violated. I hope I do not see him! I have nightmares of hunting him down and killing him. If my dreams ever became reality where would the gray area lie? Would there be any question of whether or not I would be considered a murderer?

Jen says:
Sun, 25th Apr 20105:19 pm 

it's not like people verbally consent by say "yes" a lot of it is non verbal and men usually interpret anything and everything as something sexual

Shenan says:
Wed, 12th May 20107:37 am 

If a girl is drunk out of her mind and the guy is sober and he forces himself on her its rape. If he talks her into consenting it is not. Its just him being a piece of crap. If both parties are drunk its not rape because if the girl is took drunk to give consent the guy should be given the same out. Being drunk dosnt release you from being responsible for your actions.

If you knock a girl up you are the babies daddy weather you were wasted or not. Responsibility.

s says:
Mon, 16th Aug 20108:58 pm 

Just to play the devils advocate, if a male is inebriated and a female is sober and she takes advantage of his impaired condition, is she guilty of rape? After all, under these conditions, he legally can't consent can he? If she is / is not guilty of rape, then shouldn't the same logic apply if the roles are reversed? If both are inebriated, then neither can legally consent. In that case, are both guilty of raping each other?

Stacy says:
Sat, 21st Aug 20106:56 pm 

If a drunk driver is held responsible for her actions, then a drunk girl must also be held responsible. We live in a very misandrist sexist feminist society where girls do not take responsibility for their actions. That is why girls will never be equal to men.

Dee says:
Sat, 21st Aug 20107:04 pm 

Studies by the FBI show that 92.4% of rape cases are FALSE. Girls are using FALSE claims of rape to punish men for all sorts of reasons. When a girl makes a FALSE claim of rape, nothing happens to her. The gender-biased laws need to be changed.

FALSE claims of rape are at epidemic levels, proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgxwPU0W-Wg

Jon M says:
Wed, 6th Oct 20101:47 pm 

I realise that this isnt the place for me to post but i just saw this on google and it made me think of something that happened to a friend of mine.

Firstly I am a man and from Birkenhead, England. Birkenhead is a very rough place and my friend of most of my life lived in the center of the roughest area. 

We both were going to a friends for a party that soon got out of control (like any good party) we expected a good night but it didnt end up as planned. 

My friend got drunk and started to get off (make out for americans) with another girl who was also drunk. They went upstairs together and one thing led to another. We left for home at around three in the morning chatting about the night.

However the girl he was with had a boyfriend. My mate didnt know this. When the girlfriends boyfriend found out and asked her about it she started saying that he had raped her. My friend was arrested later that day and questioned. 

He was eventually released without charges as the police received an anonymis tip that he was drunk as well ( i think it was the girl with a guilty conscience)

unfortunatly as i previously mentioned Birkenhead is very rough. The type of place where people act without getting all the facts. After being branded a rapist my best friend was stabbed and bled to death in an alley three days after being released. That was two years ago and I still cry when i think of him. 

Im not saying all women are like that but I want you to all know that when you say "I was drunk it was rape!" it can have bigger consequences than you think. I think that we need to accept responsibility for what we do when drunk and hope people are more lenient with us because of it. If we all did that my friend would be alive.

RIP Steve <3 Never forgotten

a person says:
Wed, 6th Oct 20104:02 pm 

i kinda agree and disagree,

atm my gf was supposably "raped" and yet she put out to me on the next night cause it was my birthday dinner. sh edid not tell me till a week later and only remembers patches. if she was raped shoiuld there have been anything majorly different with her when sleeping with her the next night. they did have her drunk and she is 17 (minor). i know wshe can be a horny drunk and i was not at this party at the time. was she raped or did she cheat on me….am so confused. please anyone offer some advise. i love her so much.

contact me directly on Cyber_byte@hotmail.com.

lable the message "ADVISE"

thanks to all

taylor says:
Wed, 13th Oct 20101:06 am 

i myself was just in this situation,. my best friend and i were drunk together with friends just like we always are. i kissed him but then realized there was nothing there and apologized over and over and he said there was no hard feeliings it will never happen agian end of story. so we continued to drink, i ended up blacking out drunk and my friend helped me to my bedroom and i feel asleep. i honestly dont remember much more but i herd an alarm go off and felt my body get pulled to the end of the bed in which he started to have sex with me. i couldnt really put together what was going on until he said okay finished gotta go to work and left. after that i had gotten up and got some water and woke up my friend and cried about everything. later i asked him why he would wake me from a drunken sleep and do such a thing and all he could say was sorry my bad. what is this situation considered??? im so very close to this person but cannot look at him the same at all.

RLO says:
Sat, 23rd Oct 201012:09 pm 

No one person in this situation has a fault. They both do. Okay yea he was wrong for taking advantage of her, but remember; she is not handicapped or permanently impaired, she chose to get drunk. If you choose to get drunk, then it should be assumed that you considered the consequences. If not, then that's your problem. Remember alcohol takes you over and turns you into a totally different person, so if that girl had sex with a random guy, the random guy raped the drunk you. NOT the normal you. So that means you can't wake up the next day and blame him for raping "you." It, sadly, wasn't the real you. As for the guy, well he is a guy and will take advantage of you if he sees the opportunity. In that case, if he were to get a disease or you pregnant and would have to pay child support; that's his consequence. Other than that, idk just my opinion!

Rick says:
Sun, 31st Oct 201010:08 am 

This article is unbelievable. So basically, women are not responsible for the decisions they make when they are drunk; only men are? If a woman gets drunk and says "yes" to sex, that is not rape! If someone gets drunk and drives a car and kills someone, do we say its not their fault because they weren't mentally capable of keeping themselves from driving the car? No! In every other situation imaginable, people are held responsible for the decisions they make while intoxicated. This does not mean that if a woman is forcibly raped it is her fault, but if she gives it up, that is her decision whether she was drunk or not. Guess what ladies! Guys regret sex they have when they are drunk too. Not every guy wants to bang every thing that moves. Plenty of guys get drunk and have sex with girls they wouldn't normally have sex with if they were sober. Guys get taken advantage when they are drunk too! We don't try to send people to jail for it! I can not believe how irrational people get when talking about this issue.

Ex frat-guy says:
Sat, 12th Feb 20116:10 pm 

There are a lot of people to blame here. The boy who took advantage of the drunk girl is a rapist and should go to jail. His fellow fraternity brothers, who at least know what goes on at their parties, and many of whom have probably been in his shoes are accessories to the rape, and should be charged as well. If a mob stood stripped a girl on the street so one of them could rape her, wouldn't we charge them? The girl probably has fault as well, but what if her drinks were spiked with rookies, GHB, or even everclear, as is frequently the case at frat parties? Can we blame her then? And where were her friends? It seems like there were girls she knew with her at this party. Did they really think she intended to go to the party and hook up with a random guy? Why didn't they maneuver her out of harm's way? A real friend would have.

Dan says:
Wed, 16th Mar 20118:36 pm 

While I understand the sentiment, I know way too many male friends who got targeted by women in the exact opposite way. As in, the woman gets him drunk enough to lose perspective, get themselves knocked up; then the male pays child support for 20 years afterwards.

Are you saying then, that such a situation demands the man not be responsible for the child?

Second.. and I know I'm old fashioned.. but this whole attitude of "we regret therefore you forced us" from women is just plain sickening. Let me be clear: I think rape is reprehensible. I have a daughter and let me be honest: the man who hurts her will have hell to pay.
The responsibility in a drinking situation lies squarely with the person drinking. Kill someone with your car while drunk? Guess what. You just got a homocide tagged to your record. Get pregnant because you're too drunk to care? Guess what. You decided to drink around people you couldn't trust; you got burned.

Dan says:
Wed, 16th Mar 20119:43 pm 

>>>>Whether its "partly" or "totally" their fault

Rape is rape. If one person is forcing sex on you (whether male or female – and yes, women can rape men too), it is rape.

What is not rape is when a woman decides at the last stroke "ah crap, forgot my pill – NO". This is not rape, since the act was consented. Consent is consent, and doesn't change just because the result was not favourable.

Dan says:
Wed, 16th Mar 20119:44 pm 

Agreed. What if she says yes unequivically but is drunk? Further, what if she says yes then changes her mind the next morning?

Billy says:
Wed, 16th Mar 20119:45 pm 

Katie,

By your logic, I can have a single drink, knock down as many people as I please and I'm not responsible. I'm sorry but that is pure bullshit.

Uwagwej says:
Tue, 3rd May 20113:08 am 

the exact same thing happened to me. except my so called "friend" didn't even try to stop things as the guy proceeded to unbutton my clothes even after i said stop and kept telling me to keep quiet. it wasn't until i got up and made a scene crying and ran outside wobbling drunk that people tried to help me. It wasn't my fault at all . The guy was completely sober and knew how drunk I was.

Maggie May says:
Sun, 20th Nov 20115:07 pm 

when a woman a take advantage of or raped is it her fault?should she shut her mouth or confide someone?is because she is drunk this is all her fault? is she responsible for what happen?

ggg says:
Sat, 10th Dec 20117:10 am 

Wtf? So NOBODY should EVER get drunk in a public bar because there are strangers present and you can't trust them?

Ian says:
Tue, 10th Jan 20121:30 am 

I'm sorry I disagree. An opportunist and scum of the earth, yes, but a thief, well no because you handed him your money.

anonymousplease says:
Tue, 17th Jan 20123:34 pm 

The exact thing happened to me Taylor.. except I am 19 and my friends and I partied with our friends and this kid's parents, his dad is the one this happened with and he is 49. It happened last night and I haven't stopped crying since. I am curious to know what people think about this.