Duke It Out: Chivalry?

Leigha says:
Fri, 5th Mar 20105:36 am 

I don't really think opening the door counts as chivalry. People tend to open the door for others regardless of gender, to the point where you might actually get annoyed if they don't.

But I don't know. I think chivalry is nice but not necessary, I guess? My main complaint is about women who complain about it, then whine when men don't act chivalrous towards them.

Erich says:
Fri, 5th Mar 20106:17 am 

As a man you should always pay,but sometimes women are too independent and when we try to pay, they just wont accept it and then get mad when we wont change thier tire. How does that work? We as men are protectoers and providers, if you allow us to protect you and provide for you instead of always having to be INDEPENDENT than maybe just maybe, guys will show chivalry

Casey says:
Fri, 5th Mar 20107:11 am 

This part of feminism really just goes against nature. Yes we're equal human beings, no we're not the same gender. Women deserve the right to do whatever men are able to do, but that doesn't mean we need to take advantage of some of those rights.

In the beginning of time did men really think women were inferior, or did each gender just have certain roles that they HAD to play in order for life to work? It definitely evolved into men thinking women were inferior, and that's what put us in our position to "break free", but the more I look at "gender equality" while it's a good concept, it doesn't really work, it makes life pretty difficult for both genders. If we all just wanted to be like a unisex species and live independent from one another, then sure, the way we're headed is perfect for that, but I think at some point we're going to have to acknowledge that there are some things we need men for, and there are some things they need us for, and yes, those things are going to be more traditional roles. There's a reason there were traditional roles, and it's because it worked. Everyone had a place, everyone knew what was expected of them, and chivalry was there to prove that even with fewer rights, men still RESPECTED women.

These are different times, and things change, we should embrace change, but change isn't always for the better. You live, you learn.

Jenna says:
Fri, 5th Mar 20109:38 am 

we are all equal but there is a moment when guys should recognize that we are women, not the guys. Every woman is different, some might want to pay for every meal and movie ticket. I think that’s what puts guys off from trying to do somethings. They don’t want to be offensive. I just think it’s nice when a guy opens a door for me. Chivarly is just basicly being nice and polite.
Awkward college moment: me going into building. Guy and I make eye contact. He opens door. We both go in and smack into each other. He looks at me like I have arms growing from my face.

Anonymous says:
Fri, 5th Mar 201011:04 am 

A lot of feminists argue that women are equal to men, but they aren't the same, and shouldn't be treated as men, but rather as equal (if that makes sense? haha). With that in mind I don't have a problem with traditional chivalrous acts (like paying for dinner or offering to drive), but I like to return the courtesy somehow (and no, not sexually). I've never felt that my boyfriend was doing chivalrous acts because I'm inferior. While chivalry may have roots in an antifeminist mindset, it doesn't mean that all men today behave like gentleman because they see women as inferior.

criolle johnny says:
Fri, 5th Mar 20101:51 pm 

Casey, men were the first out of the caves because the women held the children. That way the men were the ones who got killed by the bears and tigers. When we had subdued enough bears and tigers women agitated to get out of the caves.

Enough men agreed and voted to let women out of the caves.

My gripe is that a lot of the women spit on us on their way out of the cave and a lot haven't quit.

Makes chivalry hard to embrace.

So do the women who want to be treated as equals until the dinner check arrives.

em says:
Fri, 5th Mar 20102:40 pm 

criolle johnny:

If you have even looked into it, its been recently noted that women and men were both hunters in the cave days… the reason why men have physical features we previously have thought to be for hunters, is so they can fight each other for women. Look it up, cool shit.

logic says:
Fri, 5th Mar 20103:01 pm 

I like this article better than that other one about "chivalry."

That said, "chivalry" is a bunch of bullshit. What you call "chivalry," I've always figured was good manners and appreciation for your man or woman.

It is also a straight concept. Can gays and lesbians be chivalrous towards one another? If not, why not?

suzy says:
Fri, 5th Mar 20105:34 pm 

I like chivalry because it means that someone is being respectful. And i think that casey makes a good point. In my opinion, as long as there is balance in the relationship, then there shouldn't be a problem. What i mean is I don't neccessarily believe that guys should be chivralious. What i believe is whatever way a guy or girl respects you then you should do the same. It is knowing your own personal limits and allowing someone to help you when you need it. Yes be independent and at the same time be respectful.

Tamara says:
Sun, 7th Mar 20105:47 am 

I live in a country where most men get offended if you don't let them pay the bill. Chivalry is still super common in Latin America, mainly because it's still a more tradional society, based in tradional family (Catholic) values. While I respect everyone's right to live howeve they want, I don't like it. When I go out with a guy (well, used to: happyly coupled) I explain him why I think chivalry is actually disrespectful and against my own values: I don't do it angryly because while I thing chivalry is sexist, I don't think men that behave like that are: they usually do it out of habit, education, good manners, without giving it too much thought, or because they think women expect to be treated like that. The answers vary: a few will treat me like a feminazi (so used to it I don't really care), those will go home alone and won't get a second date; some don't quite get it but respect it, that' OK with me. When I went out with my boyfriend for the first time, I explained my opinion to him and he told me felt relieved; he said paying was OK back then when women don't made any money, but now it was just unfair. That totally won me over!!!

So: I believe chivalry is sexist and not really compatible with gender equality (a value that I find very important). But again, those are my values: in this case, where nothing is at steak, I don't think anyone has the right to tell the other what to do (though you guys have the right to dismiss certain guys, and I gave the right to dismiss the others).

Tamara says:
Sun, 7th Mar 20105:48 am 

don't made—didn't make

Casey says:
Sun, 7th Mar 201012:31 pm 

You know, there are a lot of women in this world who either aren't as educated on the topic of women's rights as we are, or who just don't care one way or another, because honestly, unless you are educated about the topic the genders appear to be pretty equal. We really need to acknowledge these women because when we argue that "chivalry is anti-feminist" more men will begin to give up on being chivalrous, and that is taking something away from a lot of people who actually rather enjoy it.

There are plenty of women who like to be "taken care of" by a man, you know, provided for, I'm willing to wager there are more women who enjoy a more traditional role, then there are "feminists", because it's in their nature, and if that's what they want and they enjoy life that way, then why are we fighting to rip that away from them? Perhaps that is why the word "Feminism" has such a bad connotation, because even a lot of women view feminism as destructive to their way of life. Feminists may want to break free from traditional roles, and think that they're bad, but are they really? or are they just bad for SOME women? Of course we DESERVE equal rights, but the question is do we WANT equal rights? Some women don't NEED those extra rights that men have/had, so they don't care to fight for them, and wouldn't want to since it means giving up a life they enjoy.

Rose says:
Sun, 7th Mar 20103:17 pm 

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of chivalry. Obviously, I'm flattered if the guy opens the door for me and pulls out my chair that's nice, but those are things you should do for anybody in a given situation. Not just women, and particularly not just women you're interested in. The idea of women needing "special help" from guys, especially for something as simple as pulling out a chair, and such does not sit well with me.

And I'm not the sort of girl who wants the guy to do all the work. It *is* easier on my part, because I'm both lazy and socially-awkward, for him to do the asking and the calling and the planning, but to me that sets a dangerous precedent of him taking charge and being the one who makes all the decisions in the relationship. I like to have a more equitable relationship, and chivalry seems to set it up so that the power balance favors the guy.

Zoe says:
Sun, 7th Mar 20104:24 pm 

I don't feel the need to debate chivalry. The person who reaches the door first opens it and holds it open for anyone behind them.

I'm not going to hover around waiting for a guy to do it just because of "tradition" or some feeble desire for self validation. If a man wanted to make me feel special, he could buy me a card on my birthday.

And I find that if you only associate with people who are respectful and polite, the whole wanting "guys with manners" usually takes care of itself.

logic says:
Sun, 7th Mar 20108:41 pm 

Well now, what is chivalry to you commenters? I'd wager either you don't really know or you have very different definitions.

Angeline says:
Mon, 8th Mar 20102:26 am 

Are you referring to the Sir Walter Scott version of chivalry in 'Ivanhoe', logic? The one about knights and maidens and honour and rules of conduct? Because that definition went out of vogue more than a century ago.

I'm sure the majority of commenters were referencing the contemporary meaning – of men being courteous to women.

Tamara says:
Mon, 8th Mar 20106:22 am 

I'm referring to some special traits (is that the right word? someone correct me please) some men have or used to have with women (young women: respecting the elder is a different matter) that they don't use to interact between them. Of course, as any social practice, chivalry is not about the conduct itself, but about the meaning given to the practice by the subjects engaged on it and the society where it is framed. For example: a guy insisting to buy his friend a beer has a totally different meaning than the same guy telling his girl "men are supposed to get the bills". My boyfriend sometimes would buy me a beer, and sometimes I'll do the same for him; if he has the family car to himself, he'll pick me up, but if he doesn't, we'll meat somewhere else. That's just plain practicality.

Of course, the fact that I don't like chivalrous men doesn't mean I don't like a man being nice and respectful to me: I just think respect is a different thing. In fact, a guy that wants me to fit in certain traditional roles I strongly disagree with does not respect me in my opinion. But again, most guys don't think about this when they get the door for you: it's just a habit they've been taught is socially adequate, like saying thank you and please.

Casey brings something interesting to the table: some women are not educated in gender equality, and some women may not want it. If those two groups of women coincide, there is a problem. Feminism is not about "you have to be a proffesional, stay at home mums are the worst thing in the world, spit on every man that calls you preety, sleeping around is the only politically correct way to relate to men": it's about freedom, about having the information to make a concious choice. I think every woman and man should be educated in gender equality, just like everybody should be educated in freedom of choice regarding any other matter. Then they can choose how to live and how to relate to other people.

logic says:
Mon, 8th Mar 20103:34 pm 

"For example: a guy insisting to buy his friend a beer has a totally different meaning than the same guy telling his girl “men are supposed to get the bills”. My boyfriend sometimes would buy me a beer, and sometimes I’ll do the same for him; if he has the family car to himself, he’ll pick me up, but if he doesn’t, we’ll meat somewhere else. That’s just plain practicality."

Based on those examples, it seems to me that the only thing separating chivalry and stuff I do for my friends is that I am doing them for my girlfriend/wife/boyfriend/husband. Maybe there is something else more definite?

And how does chivalry apply to gay and lesbians?

ajeanw says:
Tue, 9th Mar 20104:49 am 

If men don't want to be chivalrous they can date the women who don't want to be traditional either-the bra burning, hairy leg and armpit set. I maintain my traditional role and they maintain theirs and life is happy….

Tamara says:
Tue, 9th Mar 20108:22 am 

ajeanw- My armpits and legs are smooth, I love my supportive bra, I like to work out and though I don't wear much make up, I do like to shop and look nice. You better check your stereotypes; I would never say "traditional girls" (if there's something like that, everyone is traditional in some way and progressive in another) wear knee lenght skirts, blonde braids and in general look like Laura Ingalls.

logic- Maybe my post was too long and my point got lost. I think as chivalry is a social practice, it's about the meaning you give to your actions, the attitude. Maybe chivalry can't be pointed in a single act, but in a number of acts, as a constant conduct. Does that make any sense?

And about gays and lesbians, I can speak for the many friends I have, but of course not for all the gay people out there: usually gay people are strongly against traditional gender roles. Although sometimes they do identify themselves, for example, as a "femme" lesbian or a butch (the masculine lesbian), it's not about a traditional role but more about a sexual thing, or a performance (as in "gender is performance") thing. As far as I know they are preety equal when in a couple, at least as far as manners go.

ajeanw says:
Tue, 9th Mar 20101:29 pm 

i like gender roles-I don't think they're so bad. And I don't agree with women who want to take that away from other women who like them just because they don't. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone here-just saying something in general

C says:
Fri, 12th Mar 20102:24 am 

Guys not holding doors open is one of my biggest pet peeves, it's just rude not to. While i think it's cute when a guy opens the door and then lets you go first, all i'm really asking for is a little manners, hold it open for the person behind you. Coming from a private southern high school, I don't think I ever touched door, much less opened it myself. Now with all the awkward boys at my school, it's a regular occurrence to have it slammed in my face.

Sarah says:
Fri, 12th Mar 20107:05 pm 

i personaly think chivelry is holding the door open, for eather gender, from either gender. i grew up in a city wher it was chivelry was not the norm, when i went to college all the men were kind enough to hold open doors, and help me out of van's on feild trips. generly they did small things that showed me they respected me. because they did this i respected them more for it. to me the smaller the gesture the bigger the impact!! it sounds odd but to me it is true!!

RP says:
Sun, 14th Mar 20106:42 pm 

Well ladies, all I hear from my single girl friends is that they can't find a REAL man. You wanted equality, you've got it… girly men.

logic says:
Wed, 17th Mar 201010:16 am 

"logic- Maybe my post was too long and my point got lost. I think as chivalry is a social practice, it’s about the meaning you give to your actions, the attitude. Maybe chivalry can’t be pointed in a single act, but in a number of acts, as a constant conduct. Does that make any sense?

And about gays and lesbians, I can speak for the many friends I have, but of course not for all the gay people out there: usually gay people are strongly against traditional gender roles. Although sometimes they do identify themselves, for example, as a “femme” lesbian or a butch (the masculine lesbian), it’s not about a traditional role but more about a sexual thing, or a performance (as in “gender is performance”) thing. As far as I know they are preety equal when in a couple, at least as far as manners go."

Again, this sounds like non-gender specific gestures for a girlfriend or boyfriend.

The reason I dislike the idea of chivalry is that it is all about gender roles, when in my experience, men have held doors for me and they've held doors for their girlfriends. Girlfriends have taken me out to dinner or got me a present. These are things where if a man did it for his woman, it would be called chivalry. It just does not make sense to me, since it implies women and men don't do that stuff for men, which is not true.

Bill says:
Tue, 23rd Mar 201010:48 pm 

I believe Chivalry is a specific thing. (Disclaimer- I am a traditional, male, white, straight, Christian… just call me WASPy) The term came from the Medieval ages and technically is in reference to a Knights code of conduct. It’s a way for a MALE to respectfully treat a FEMALE. Courtesy and Kindness are part of this, but cannot replace the term chivalry. It certainly has evolved, I mean I’m not saying to be chivalrous one has to ride a horse or wear plate armour of some type, but no, I don’t think a woman could be chivalrous to her lesbian partner. She could be respectful, appreciative, and polite, but chivalry is a solely ween/vageen relationship, and specifically from the male to the female.

As another disclaimer (and one im sure won’t surprise you, given the first) I believe traditional gender roles are valid. I guess I just don’t see how they are discriminatory. It’s not like I don’t think my girlfriend, or sister, or aunt, or mother is incapable of opening the door, or taking out the garbage, or opening that pickle jar, or shoveling the driveway, and I’m aware that they are physically capable of walking on the left side of the side walk, and also that the chances of someone throwing feces out their window at us (where the tradition arose from) is extremely unlikely, but I do it because I love and respect them. It is a subconscious urge to protect. Men love women. In a fight or flight circumstance with a woman, a man’s instinct is to fight to allow the female to flee. Men LOVE women. Women are man’s ‘raison d’etre’. When a man hunts, he hunts for his family, works for his family, provides for his family. Why? Because it gives him fulfillment. This generation of sissy-boys and bulldykes is gonna be a joke. Could you imagine being in high school right now?

“Guys not holding doors open is one of my biggest pet peeves, it’s just rude not to. While i think it’s cute when a guy opens the door and then lets you go first, all i’m really asking for is a little manners, hold it open for the person behind you. Coming from a private southern high school, I don’t think I ever touched door, much less opened it myself. Now with all the awkward boys at my school, it’s a regular occurrence to have it slammed in my face.”
THIS LAST SENTENCE IS A KEY POINT TO THIS ARGUMENT. So many boys nowadays have NO IDEA how to act. They hear garbage like ‘holding doors for women is sexist’ and have no idea what to do with themselves. Then we have an uprising of homosexuality, as kids have no idea who they are, and we are then told that this is ‘natural’ and ‘moral’ and that modern society has allowed them to express their sexuality, rather than the effect modern society has had in trashing their identifying characteristics. Courtship has turned into sex, flirting has turned into drinking to feel comfortable enough to be around the opposite sex, and sex has become a physical passtime. And you guys are arguing that we need LESS emphasis on gender roles? We promote whoredom through our celebrities, have kids growing up dressing like Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan and mothers who are too self conscious and ignorant to give them any advice about how to be ‘okay with me’. Let’s destroy traditional family values a little more, it’s going swimmingly so far.

aaaaaaa says:
Fri, 26th Mar 20104:35 pm 

wat lol gender roles are for babies

Bob says:
Mon, 6th Sep 20107:41 pm 

"we are all equal but there is a moment when guys should recognize that we are women"

LOL!

Are You kidding me! You want the privilege of feminism and then keep the old ones. The butter and it's money! Gals You still don't get it!

By the Way, we perfectly know that You are Women, the endless list of Your entitlements, privileges and double standards remind us. The perpetual danger to be put in jail because You say (lies) so remind us. Don't fear, we can't forget that you are Women.

Mike1982 says:
Sun, 22nd Apr 201210:30 pm 

So you mean women should have never fought for the right to vote, to drive a car, to work, to go to college, and for equal work for equal pay (which society is still working on trying to make happen)??? It was also perfectly legal for husbands to beat their wives and children.

What an ignorant poor excuse for a comment. LOL

Feminism (early Feminism) is what made humans more equal and it benefited the whole of society. This is why in the Middle East women and children are abused and battered and why they have such a violent messed up society. Now I'm not defending extreme Feminazis. But anyone with half a brain can understand that feminism was necessary because our society had so many problems – so many inequities and injustices.

I think if women had to choose, I know they would prefer to take all those BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS over chivalry anyday. It's like asking a starving person if they would prefer a bowl of soup or a pack of skittles. Everyone would pick the bowl of soup.

But there's nothing wrong with giving women equal human rights AND ALSO being chivalrous. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I would never want a woman to get paid less for doing the exact same job as her male co-worker and I gladly open doors, pull chairs and walk on the street side of the sidewalk for women.

RP, you sound like a lazy rude dbag who just doesn't want to make an effort for anyone or be polite to anyone. And I don't think that has anything to do with gender. It's just your awful selfish personality which ironically is what drives the extreme Feminazis into convincing people that all men are bad. You are giving them the exact ammunition they need.